Viewing a thread - 4020 injection pump timing (2024)

IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 11:39 (#5725746) Subject: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

I rebuilt a 404 engine in a JD 4020, It got a new crank, new cam, used oil pump, new oil pump drive gear and a rebuilt injection pump. That is pretty much everything new in the driveline of the injection pump. When I turn the engine flywheel to TDC on compression stroke the pump timing mark is to the far right of the mark in the pump window. (It should be lined up) I turned the pump counter clockwise as much as I can, about 1 degree, still way off and tried to start it. It did start but but took a lot of cranking and when it fired it took off very slowly and then idled pretty good. When I gave it some throttle it knocked like it had detonation (preignition?) (advanced to much). The knocking wasn't to bad and only when giving some throttle. I tried to drive it and it drove good and sounded good, doesn't smoke has good power and very little blow by. I pulled it in the shop and shut it off. When I tried to start again it cranked a long time and barely started to fire and very slowly with lots of blue smoke came up to idle speed and then sounded good again but still sounds like detonation (knocking) when giving throttle. Not sure where to look, I talked to pump guy he said it's the same pump drive hub and if it's wrong it was wrong when it came in. I noticed in IT book a 3010 should be 10 degree advance when pump timing marks are lined up, (Coincidence?) Could some thing be a tooth off and still run pretty good but not start good? Any ideas? Thanks.

pirlbeck

Posted 12/27/2016 11:53 (#5725769 - in reply to #5725746) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

West Central Iowa

At TDC the marks in the pump timing window should be lined up. If you are sure the cam to crank gear is timed correctly, you either have the oil pump not timed properly OR the gear on the camshaft that drives the oil pump was not indexed correctly when the camshaft was made. I know there were some aftermarket camshafts made in the last few years that had this problem. Where did the new camshaft come from?

I would drop the pan and oil pump and try timing the oil pump one tooth different in the direction it needs to go and see where you are at then.

6030pullr

Posted 12/27/2016 12:26 (#5725839 - in reply to #5725769) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

ECWI

I always drop the inj. Pump in when the flywheel is at tdc to make sure the timing mark lines up before putting the oil pan back on. One tooth off, and the oil pan has to come off. Just got done helping the neighbors trouble shoot theirs after they couldn't get it to start. Had the oil pump 180 off. IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 13:08 (#5725917 - in reply to #5725769) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

Thanks for responding, my eyeballs tell me that the cam to crank marks are correct, the guy helping me agrees. The slot on the oil pump was exactly 15 degrees from parallel with the frame rails. The V mark on the oil pump shaft is pointing toward the engine block. I'm suspicious of a injection pump issue but not ruling out something I did wrong. I think the cam came from AG Kits, they sell Reliance parts, I would have bought it in January or so of this year (2016). Thanks

IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 13:10 (#5725926 - in reply to #5725839) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

If the oil pump is 180 degrees off, the V mark would be pointing away from the engine block, correct?
Also, this engine did start and run. It sounds pretty good running with the exception of some detonation while throttling up. It starts hard.

Edited by IaAngus 12/27/2016 13:13

partimer

Posted 12/27/2016 13:17 (#5725941 - in reply to #5725917) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Northwest Iowa

It sure sounds like you are 1 tooth off on the oil pump installation. I had the same problem many years ago. It will run like crap, smoke and start hard. pirlbeck

Posted 12/27/2016 13:26 (#5725958 - in reply to #5725917) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

West Central Iowa

You need to check with Ag Kits on this camshaft. This is the time frame where Reliance had problems with the indexing of the oil pump gear and ALSO had problems with the oil pump gear on the camshaft being soft and failing in a couple of hundred hours .

I am putting a cam and lifter kit in a 4430 for a customer right now.........my Reliance supplier advised me to buy the camshaft and lifter kit from JD, until they get there camshaft problems sorted out.

IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 13:27 (#5725963 - in reply to #5725941) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

See Also

Topic 9: MBE Timing Tips, Including a Must-Use Scantron Strategy - JD Advising

When the TDC mark on the flywheel is lined up with the mark on the clutch housing the timing mark for the pump is at the far right side of the window on the pump. Does that sound like one tooth off?

4020dt

Posted 12/27/2016 13:30 (#5725968 - in reply to #5725917) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

NC IL I80@68

Was the injection pump shaft changed ? Found out they have two different ones according to a bulletin from pump shop. Was working on a neighbors a while back he got the pump back , he marked the pump housing and block we put the pump on marks were off couldn't get lines on etc he had everything lined up cam wasn't taken out etc. pump shop said we were doing it wrong . I went home found an old shaft - they were different - went back to pump place with both shafts he said shaft wasn't changed but he came up with the right one and the paper to show the difference. Took it back lined up perfect and fired up immediately. Sounds like your other marks are right on if I remember right . That's about all I can think of . IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 13:54 (#5725997 - in reply to #5725958) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

Yep, I called them, It sounds like I got a bad cam. We'll see how this plays out, I'll let you know. Thanks for your help, you saved me a ton of time.

IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 14:02 (#5726015 - in reply to #5725968) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

I'll still check that out, It does seem like the slot in oil pump is right. According to what I found out the drive gear on cam is not indexed properly and could be anywhere, There is a sweet spot that covers a few degrees and there are the fringe areas till you hit the next tooth. If I could twist the pump farther I could make it work but I would have to hog out the holes in the base and bend the lines. Not going to do that. How did you tell that the shaft is different or wrong? I have and old pump handy I could compare.

TD15

Posted 12/27/2016 14:26 (#5726043 - in reply to #5725746) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

You need to make sure you are actually on #1 TDC before installing the engine oil pump. IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 14:31 (#5726054 - in reply to #5726043) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

I did, It was.

JD 9400

Posted 12/27/2016 16:47 (#5726261 - in reply to #5725917) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Southern Pa.

IaAngus, according to what you're saying, everything sounds good. I am also wondering about your pump shaft.

IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 17:27 (#5726349 - in reply to #5726261) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

I did say the slot in the oil pump shaft is exactly 15 degrees like it's suppose to be, a whole tooth would move the slot way to far either way but maybe it is a few degrees off. Since I have learned of the cam shaft problems i'm leaning that way but I'm still not 100% sure what the problem is and I would like to be 100% sure the cam is the problem before I pull the tractor all apart to get the cam out. Any ideas to make sure either way.

JD 9400

Posted 12/27/2016 17:43 (#5726394 - in reply to #5726349) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Southern Pa.

If you're on TDC, and your injector pump drive slot is 15° degrees off of straight, and timing mark on drive gear is toward the cam, it should be ok. There is one thing though. Is your pump drive slot closer to the cam in the rear of the slot, (toward the seat) or is the slot rotated closer to the cam on the front side? (toward the radiator)

Hopefully this makes sense.

pirlbeck

Posted 12/27/2016 17:49 (#5726403 - in reply to #5726349) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

West Central Iowa

It would be some work, but the only way that would be 100% positive would be to try your pump on a different 4020. Anyone in the area have a 4020 they are working on that they would already have the injection pump off?

Tom's Agri Diesel in Harlan Iowa has all of the stuff to check the gear indexing and the Rockwell hardness of the gear, but the cam must be out of the engine to do it.

Not that it matters much, but is this an early or later (side console) 4020?

pirlbeck

Posted 12/27/2016 18:01 (#5726429 - in reply to #5726394) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

West Central Iowa

The JD 4020 service manual refers to it as "approximately 15 degrees". IF the cam gear is indexed correctly you will either be CLOSE to this 15 degrees or off by quite a bit, as jumping the oil pump 1 tooth would be a lot of movement one way or the other. Now if the gear is indexed wrong on the camshaft it could be "close" but "not close enough".

It is a known fact that some of these cams were manufactured without paying ANY attention to how this gear was indexed in relationship to the keyway on the front of the cam. They would of worked fine if all that gear ran was the oil pump (no injection pump) like on the newer tractors, at least that is if they would of gotten the hardness correct on the gear.

Rayl

Posted 12/27/2016 18:53 (#5726556 - in reply to #5726054) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Saline County, Mo

Neighbor had his 4020 inj pump redone. Had a new rotor installed that you manually marked the dot. Shop got it off when they marked. Take #1 line off the pump and you can tell if it's truly in time when you look in the hole where the line was JD 9400

Posted 12/27/2016 18:59 (#5726567 - in reply to #5726429) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Southern Pa.

I agree. There is some leeway with the slots in the pump. I was thinking even though the drive slot is 15° off of straight, it could be actually 30° off, because possibly the slot is not rotated properly. Just a thought.

Speed

Posted 12/27/2016 19:18 (#5726612 - in reply to #5725963) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

farmland indiana

Yes IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 20:22 (#5726793 - in reply to #5726403) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

It's an early model 4020. If the cam gear indexing is the problem, could the driven gear on the oil pump be removed and a new key way be cut and reinstalled. If the gear on the cam is soft in addition this would not be of any use. Thanks to all you guys for all the input.

IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 20:24 (#5726798 - in reply to #5726556) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

OK, thanks for that. Ill check that out.

IaAngus

Posted 12/27/2016 20:28 (#5726818 - in reply to #5726394) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

The slot is closer to the cam in the front position. The V is toward the number 6 cylinder.

JD 9400

Posted 12/28/2016 02:13 (#5727269 - in reply to #5726818) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Southern Pa.

I am fairly certain that is wrong. I'm thinking the slot should be closer to the cam on the back side, not the front side. The way it is now will advance the pump too much. You may be a tooth off. Try moving it one tooth, and see if you can get it to be 15° off of straight with the rear of the slot toward the cam. (Arrow pointing slightly forward, probably about number 4 cyl.)

(Edited to add) I am working on a 4020. I dropped the pump in some weeks ago, but don't have the lines, etc. hooked up yet. Wouldn't take much to look at the drive gear slot. If you want, I would be glad to do that. Won't be home untill the middle of this afternoon though.

I am assuming you double checked the timing gears in the front before installing the timing gear cover? I will say if the cam is a tooth off, you would likely have some bent pushrods.

Edited by JD 9400 12/28/2016 02:41

IaAngus

Posted 12/28/2016 17:13 (#5728395 - in reply to #5727269) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

This is what I'm going buy, and it seemed to work last time I put one in. I checked the cam / crank timing, rechecked and then I checked at least twice more before I put the timing cover on. Also It wouldn't sound to good running with the cam timing off.

(IMG_20161228_165920756.jpg)

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JD 9400

Posted 12/28/2016 17:26 (#5728422 - in reply to #5728395) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Southern Pa.

Ok, I was thinking it was the other way around. I thought there was a picture of it in an I&T manual. Sounds like you did a real good job checking your timing. That's great! It almost has to be your pump shaft is wrong somehow, or your camshaft oil pump drive gear is a little off.

In an earlier post you mentioned about having another 4020 pump laying around. Maybe drop it in and see what you have?

IaAngus

Posted 12/28/2016 17:37 (#5728439 - in reply to #5728422) Subject: RE: 4020 injection pump timing

Eastern Iowa

Thats a good Idea, I think I will do that. I'll let you know how that come out. Thanks.